Jan. 6, 2004
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight:
Is President Bush going soft on illegal immigration?
You’re about to enter
SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. No passport required, no border jumping
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES: This administration is firmly against
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: Tomorrow, President
Bush announces his plan for limited amnesty for illegal immigrants.
But will it be limited enough? That heated debate coming up.
And another royal shakeup.
Before she died, Princess Diana wrote that she thought someone
was planning to kill her. It turns out that someone was Prince
And unholy matrimony. Britney
Spears calls it quits after 55 hours.
We’re going to ask Dr.
Ruth about the effect on the pop star’s young fans.
And 14 years after he was
banned from baseball, Pete Rose decides it’s time to
step up to the plate and admit that he did bet on the national
pastime. But should that earn him a spot in the Hall of Fames?
Well, tomorrow, the president
of the United States is going to officially surrender to illegal
immigrants. It’s time for tonight’s Real Deal.
President Bush is about to
rewrite the rules on illegal immigration by essentially ignoring
those rules. Reports out of Washington tonight are that the
White House is going to announce a new policy that would allow
American jobs to be assigned to illegal immigrants. The Bush
plan allows American employers to hire Mexican citizens to
fill American jobs. Now, these jobs are supposedly too demeaning
for Americans to occupy, but that concept is utter nonsense.
The only reason Americans aren’t taking these jobs in
question is because businesses are able to fill their employment
rolls with illegal immigrants.
These illegal immigrants will
work for next to nothing. So, if the United States government
actually protected our bordered and enforced the employment
laws that you pay for them to enforce, these jobs in question
would pay good enough wages for Americans to fill. But, then
again, living by the law of the land might actually affect
some businesses’ bottom line. Besides, as we all know,
playing to illegal aliens is all the rage in Washington these
days, where politicians of both parties cynically believe
that the only way to win votes is by embracing a group of
criminals who come to our country, break our laws, and take
Tomorrow, the chief law enforcement
officer of the United States is going to tell the world that
America has given up its battle to protect its borders. And
what that means for our nation’s security is anybody’s
guess. It’s a disturbing turn of events in Washington.
And it’s tonight’s Real Deal.
Now, the president is giving
a big speech tomorrow on his immigration policy. And his press
secretary, Scott McClellan, gave us a preview of what to expect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE
PRESS SECRETARY: If employers are offering jobs to Americans
that Americans are not willing to fill, then we ought to welcome
to our country those who will fill that job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: And with us tonight
is Jared Taylor. He’s the publisher of The American
Renaissance. And we also have Dan Griswold. Dan is an
immigration expert from the Cato Institute.
Jared Taylor, you heard the
president’s spokesman. What should we make of George
Bush’s plan to offer American jobs to illegal immigrants?
JARED TAYLOR, THE AMERICAN
RENAISSANCE: Well, I think you said it extremely well.
They’re going to try
to dress this thing up and pretend that it’s not an amnesty,
but that’s clearly what it is. Anything short of deportation
for illegals is an amnesty. We had one once before in 1986.
It was supposed to be the never-again, one-time-only amnesty.
And to be talking about it again I think is extremely irresponsible
and makes the country look untrustworthy.
SCARBOROUGH: Dan Griswold,
the president’s statement tomorrow may be perceived by
some as the White House’s attempt to cynically win over
Hispanic voters. Isn’t that what’s going on here?
DAN GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE:
No, Joe, I think you have got it wrong and I think the president
has it right.
He’s trying to get U.S.—our
dysfunctional immigration laws in conformity with the reality
of American life. Look, the U.S. economy is going to continue
to create millions of low-skill jobs at a time when U.S. workers
are increasingly unwilling to take those jobs. We’re
getting older. We’re getting better educated. Where was
the line of people, Americans, waiting to stay up all night
waiting to scrub toilets at Wal-Mart? It’s just not there.
GRISWOLD: And, at the same
time, there’s no . . .
SCARBOROUGH: But, Dan, you’re
saying we have dysfunctional immigration laws. But what’s
dysfunctional, the laws themselves or our refusal to enforce
GRISWOLD: The laws are unenforceable,
because we have this gap, this gap between the jobs we’re
creating and the unwillingness of Americans to take these
These workers come here because
there is demand for their services. They’re serving important
functions in industries like construction, agriculture, hotel
and motel industry, light manufacturing. We have manufacturing
industries that would go offshore.
SCARBOROUGH: Jared Taylor,
what do you say to that? Are there certain jobs in America
that are just too demeaning and too low-paying for Americans
TAYLOR: I think you put it
very well, Joe, when you opened this segment here.
We now have an estimated nine
to 12 million immigrants. We have nine million unemployed
Americans. You hit it on the head when you said, if those
illegal immigrants were not here, we might pay a little bit
more for those jobs. What it means, Americans would have those
jobs and not these lawbreakers and queue-jumpers, who have
pushed in here, breaking our laws as it is.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, here’s
what President Bush is reportedly going to propose as a guest
worker program tomorrow, that U.S. companies will post jobs
on the Internet that they can’t fill here. Immigrants
will then apply, have a background check. And if they pass,
they stay for three years and can renew for three more. Eventually,
they could even apply for a green card.
Now, Jared Taylor, what do
you say about this plan that, again—let’s not brush
over the fact that these people are breaking our laws and
now they’re actually going to be allowed through this
process to get a green card.
TAYLOR: First of all, first
of all, there was never a guest worker program that ended
up—that didn’t end up being a squatter worker program.
Guests are here at our pleasure
and go home when we say go home. Ask the Germans about their
guest workers, the Turks, who are now an assimilable minority
that cause terrible problems. The idea of a guest worker problem
will work only if there’s some sort of immaculate insertion
of these people into the economy and they have no interaction
with the rest of the country and then they disappear. That’s
These people will have children.
They will have wives. They will have girlfriends. They will
be on the public dole. They will be getting hurt and going
to emergency rooms. The idea that this will not affect the
rest of the country is, I think, eyewash.
SCARBOROUGH: Dan Griswold,
isn’t the president going to be admitting tomorrow that
America is incapable of protecting its borders?
GRISWOLD: Not at all.
In fact, I think this is going
to help us protect our borders. Secretary Ridge, the homeland
security secretary, two or three weeks ago started this conversation
by saying it would make his job easier if we knew who was
here. We have eight million people living in a kind of legal
twilight zone. If they have a path a legalization, they’ll
be more inclined to cooperate with law enforcement.
We can begin to drain the
swamp of smuggling and document fraud. We can free up resources
to go after terrorists. Why is our Homeland Security Department
expending its resources trying to bust janitors at Wal-Mart?
I’d rather have them going after terrorists.
I think that’s why Secretary
Ridge and President Bush, who’s doing everything he can,
I think, to protect us from terrorism, I think this is the
right thing to do. It’s good for our national security,
good for our economy. It’s humane and just approach to
SCARBOROUGH: Now, Jared, this
is the same argument that we heard when California was talking
about giving illegal aliens drivers licenses. They said that
law enforcement officers actually said, hey, it will make
our job easier. We’ll know who is in the country illegally
and we’ll be able to track them down. Do you buy that
TAYLOR: We’re just making
it easier and more attractive for people who should stay home
to come here. It will have no effect, other than encourage
yet others to come and break the law to come in.
They will have the idea they,
too, will get an amnesty. We are opening up a door that will
result in a flood. Already, look, we have one-fifth of the
population of Mexico living here. How much of Mexico do we
wish to have, especially given that Mexicans are three times
as likely as whites to commit violent crimes? There’s
not a single school district in the country where Mexicans
perform at the level of whites and Asians.
There’s not a single
majority Mexican neighborhood that Mr. Griswold would probably
want to live in. Why do would we want to increase the proportion
of Mexicans already here?
SCARBOROUGH: Dan, respond
to that. There were several charges made by Jared. Respond
to those, please.
GRISWOLD: Again, President
Bush grew up in Texas. He was governor of that great state.
He knows. There is a state
where U.S. and Mexican-Americans live side by side, work side
by side in a peaceful, productive culture. The president has
said family values don’t stop at the Rio Grande. Immigrants
are hardworking, peaceful people. We should welcome them if
they’re coming here to fill jobs that Americans don’t
TAYLOR: I would like Mr. Bush
to tell me to name one majority Mexican neighborhood he would
like to live in, one majority Mexican school he’d like
his children to attend.
It’s all very well .
GRISWOLD: You need to get
out and see this country.
TAYLOR: Hey, then you name
one yourself. Name one Mexican neighborhood you’d like
to live in.
This is typical. These are
people who say, OK, this is great. I don’t care if these
Mexicans are going to live 20 or 30 in a house, because it’s
not my daughter who’s going to look across the back fence
and see them urinating in their yard. No, I’m happy to
get a guy who can mow the lawn for $2 an hour and that’s
all I care about. This is a much bigger question.
GRISWOLD: Joe, this is not
worthy of your show.
SCARBOROUGH: I was just going
to say, obviously, there’s some
stereotypes out there that
I may not agree with, that you may not agree
with. But the bottom line
TAYLOR: This is reality, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: But the bottom
line is this, Dan.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes, you can
talk about that, but I want you to also respond to this.
Just talking about illegal
immigration for a minute. And I know Cato is a libertarian
organization, the less laws, the better. But are there any
immigration laws that you and Cato would believe we need to
What we have now is anarchy,
Joe. I want a system that is safe, orderly and legal. We need
to have laws that are first in conformity with the realities
of our life. We’re incorporating this US-VISIT program,
which I think is a reasonable response to have—keep track
of who enters the country and who leaves.
But we can’t have our
laws in fundamental conflict with the reality of the needs
of the American economy and American life. And that’s
what we have now. And I think the president is trying to bring
our immigration laws into conformity with how we’re actually
living your lives.
Now, I just want to say about
Mexicans, they have a high rate of two-parent families, a
high rate of homeownership. They’re religious people.
They’re family-oriented people. I just think it’s
outrageous what you have allowed your guest to say tonight.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, I certainly
haven’t allowed him to say anything. He’s come on.
It’s a free country. And even though I disagree with
him, he’s free to say what he says, just like you. You’re
free to come on and say what you’ve said. We certainly
And certainly, this is not
a question about whether Mexicans should be able to immigrate
to America or whether Lithuanians should be able to immigrate
to America. We are a country of immigrants. Americans are
great. We are a great country because we are the melting pot.
But, at the same time, those
people that have come here before as immigrants have come
here legally. That’s the issue here. It’s not about
whether they’re Mexicans or Canadians or whether they’re
from England or whether they’re from Russia or whether
they’re from China. It’s whether they stand in line
with the other illegal immigrants.
I constantly, when I was in
Congress and even now, I have people that I run into that
are from China or from Pakistan. I have a gentleman from Pakistan
who said his wife is over in Pakistan and he wants to get
her here with the rest of his family. But he can’t do
it, because the INS will not allow her in here.
I think it’s absurd that
other people wait in lines and they live by the rules of our
land, the immigration rules of our land. But one group of
people, just because they live on our southern border, are
able to come in here, break our laws, and have American politicians
saying, that’s OK. It has nothing to do with whether
they’re Mexicans or Pakistanis or Canadians. It’s
whether the people that come into this country do it legally.
Anyway, I want to thank both
of our guests for joining us.